One has to concur 100% with Anne’s analogy and comments. Perhaps it really is time for a clean break? Yes, all good things do eventually end!
Separately, it does not help that Underscar’s Privacy Policy sent out yesterday is in fact’;s HOTL’s!

This might provide owners a comparison website that appears simple to use and has many of the features that have been discussed to date. It provides a great top down structure and is very informative…. http://www.lakeland-village.co.uk/
Hope this helps.

Geoff,

I do understand but HOTL are ALREADY gaining commission from rentals as Underscar.co.uk directs renters ( or potential purchasers) to themselves via contact details once the user has chosen or highlighted their interest in an apartment/week at Underscar.
I
The difference that we are pointing out to owners now is that since this website was designed, if a chosen week or property was not available at Underscar, then instead of keeping the user focused on Underscar and identifying other alternative weeks or properties available at Underscar ( within a property or date range or even for a given year) they have been directed to other properties elsewhere.

This means that the user has been lost to Underscar and in effect HOTL have piggybacked the Underscar website to their own advantage.

For owners comprehension this is akin to the following example….
A purchaser goes to for instance M&S website to look for a product but doesn’t find it, and instead of M&S identifying alternative products within the M&S range that you might be interested in, they direct you instead to a competitor ( John Lewis for example)!! It’s crazy….

We can’t afford to lose these potential renters or purchasers to competitors.

Surely website(s) should be modified to prevent this unacceptable practice?

For those who suggest that HOTL have paid or are paying for these websites, I would query how many potential renters or purchasers have we lost to competitors since this has been in existence, and how many “offers”elsewhere have undermined our ability to make our own offers but offers that reflect the 5* standards that appear few and far between in the Lake District.
What’s more, as HOTL already gain commission shouldn’t this incentivise them to gain more rentals ( and purchasers) at Underscar?

I’m sure you are aware of this Geoff but I suspect there are many owners who have been oblivious to this compromising situation and I sincerely hope that HOTL will respond accordingly.

The Underscar-holidays.co.uk website is being developed by HOTL at their expense presumably because they believe it will increase rentals of underscar properties and hence their commission income. As you will be aware Commission income is the only payments HOTL receive for their letting activity.

Geoff Norris

Thank you Geoff.
Can I query if in the interim period if time and effort are being spent on a second website and who is paying for this endeavour until such time as a decision is made on whether only one website will suffice?
Are owners being compromised by extra costs on an endeavour which could be abandoned as not being in the best interests of owners in the longer term?
There is presumably a need to minimise the cost exposure of unnecessary endeavours to owners in this regard.

Anne.
You are making two points and you have made them a number of times. First is that any underscar website which directs the user away from the underscar apartment is not working in the interests of the owners. The second point is that a single underscar site which provides owners with their own area, promotes sales and promotes rentals and presumably is fully e-commerce enabled is the most effective vehicle for achieving higher sales and rental levels. I understand both these points and they will be taken into account in the review report which will be put to the Board in due course. You do not need to repeat them for my sake.
As part of the review we are looking at the websites and practices of other timeshare complexes in the Lakes. I f owners out there are impressed with how others do this please send me ([email protected]) a link to the relevant website, possibly with an explanation of why you think this is a particularity effective site.

Geoff Norris.

Anne Simpson makes some extremely valid points. Even if there is no expressed conflict of interest, the possibility is there. Should the Board consider a totally fresh approach with a different agency? I am sure effective advice is available within the timeshare industry. Does our Trustee have any any comments on this issue?

Perhaps I should explain my concerns…..it appears that HOTL are developing in this manner to retain a monopoly and control over the marketing of Underscar.
Why should marketing be limited to only HOTL when Underscar website Underscar.co.uk should allow for any potential renter or propspective purchaser to review the details of our wonderful development, without owners being compromised by redirection from that site to competitors properties.. It doesn’t make any sense I’m afraid and appears as an attempt to retain a monopoly which has not been successful to date.

Geoff
With respect ANY Underscar website that redirects away from Underscar is undermining the interests of owners. No other timeshare in the Lakes appears to compromise owners in this manner so why should Underscar be any different in this regard, especially when marketing has not resolved such issues for many years.
It almost appears as though HOTL are insensitive to this problem and are causing greater costs by trying to develop another website when one website ( the existing website Underscar.co.uk) should suffice so long as owners interests and observations are respected.
I don’t understand why this is being developed when costs are trying to be saved….

This is a comment ’re a number of issues raised by a number of people
Aware of Carlisle airport opportunity: HOTL involved in possible marketing opportunities
Interested in lifestyle retreat options: send me a link
Not talking about wholesale redesign of the home website but there are clear needs for improvement which are non-trivial. (Is there are cost implications of improvements)
HOTL are developing the underscar rentals site and are well aware of most issues(e.g. ’re photos) mentioned and have promised me they will implement changes required. Also the Underscar rentals site is underscar properties only: no diversion to other properties. NB the rental site is still a work in progress.
Also owners should be aware that the vast majority of visitors who view the Underscar property rental pages arrive there from the HOTL website.
I will periodically produce answers to issues raised as my review develops

Thank you, Anne, for your continuing ”prompting”. Through DAE – using our other timeshare – , we recently spent a week at Barnsdale and attended their Welcome Meeting. We learned about their approach to resales etc. I sent a copy of their ”Lifestyle Retreat” brochure to FML with a request to pass it on to the Board. It is well worth a look on their website, where it is listed as a 5 year lifestyle retreat. It is certainly something that should be given due consideration. We thought it was an excellent idea/”product” and in conversation with the staff, understood that it was a successful option to the long term commitment. I trust the Board will make some enquiries and perhaps have a realistic discussion with the team there. Incidentally, using DAE, we had a 3 bedroom Lodge there, in exchange for our 1 bedroom unit!

With regard to maximising rentals and sales, I just noticed on Sky business news that Stobart are investing in the Carlisle Lake District airport and wondered if this has potential going forward in terms of marketing Underscar rentals and sales if transport links are being improved….especially since the Lake District has been declared a UNESCO World Heritage centre. Underscar is only 30 miles from Carlisle… car hire available from the airport….

Scheduled flights to begin in June and to quote from the airport website ““There is huge demand from London, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to visit Carlisle, which is home to major businesses and serves as a gateway to the Lake District, two UNSCO World Heritage Sites and South Scotland.”
Also noted that the route to Dublin also offers additional connectivity ease to travellers as they will be able to clear US immigration checks in the comfort of Dublin Airport at Terminal 2 – meaning they will land State side as a hassle free domestic passenger.”

Is this therefore worthy of further investigation with a view to raising the profile within the Underscar website?

Our demographic appears to be for those able to afford the lodges, but this then begs the question have the increases in maintenance, through decision making that appeared at times to be “living beyond our means “, played its part in this equation? …….inefficient upgrades ( I.e. perhaps losing sight of the need for emphasis on cost effectiveness without unduly compromising standards , losing sight of priorities as opposed to “ niceties” , removing perfectly acceptable products without sufficient notice and discussion etc). This is what I mean by sensitive issues that need resolving.
There appears a limit as to what are acceptable increases going forward, especially given other factors ( ageing owners, ability to relinquish properties, an evolving competitive market with regard to rentals sales and exchange options etc).
The evolving nature of holiday property bonds and the comparable costs alongside good quality and flexible exchange options that these bonds appear to provide, is not something to be lightly dismissed if we are to remain competitive in this “ good quality” marketplace going forward.
New owners and renters presumably will be seeking good but equally cost effective quality, but this should never be at the risk of pricing ourselves out of the market. To focus on good quality without realistic comprehension of the likes of competition from holiday property bonds, appears to be compromising all owners … especially without an effective marketing strategy in place that removes such aspects as the extraordinary practice of allowing compromising redirections to other properties !

In hindsight this was sadly bound to happen so long as these realities have been dismissed or not given serious consideration along the years.
One thing in our favour however is that Underscar stands in a beautiful location, is well cared for, but is in dire need of a more efficient and democratic approach given it has great potential so long as the rental and sales marketing, comparable good quality exchange options and ongoing refurbishments are REALISTICALLY addressed.

In response to your comment regarding posting here vs email Geoff, I’d prefer both – I feel it’s important that members can see the thoughts and concerns of other members and those taking an active interest are on this forum, it also enables us to see the scale of the problem(s) too as some will have different issues. I want to see the focus on both LETTINGS and RESALES – very little is done to promote the resale of properties and for some members (not all part of this forum as I’ve been contacted directly by some) it’s the primary issue due to ageing owners and not wanting to leave the property to their beneficiaries.

Regarding SEO, you’re quite right, it can be an expensive but we can do things to help ourselves with this, the Underscar Facebook page could be utilised more to point people to the website (the Twitter and Instagram accounts seem to be pro-active in this area but more could be done). We are missing a missed opportunity with Facebook as people will stumble across this rather than searching specifically for it.

We don’t need to reinvent the wheel with this (ie the website doesn’t have to be redesigned), bring the resales to the main website rather than the Owners Area, allow potential buyers to SEE what they may be purchasing, don’t expect them to contact Underscar for more info (how many of us look in a shop window and decide to enter the shop because we like what we’ve seen?), get them ”sold” by the pictures and what they would be buying into, this will encourage them to ask for more info. Same with lettings, there are some pictures but they’re boring – take them on a tour of the apartment.

I think we need potential timescales too of when thinks may change, the Board have been saying for years things will improve regarding resales and lettings but we’re still waiting, it’s brilliant to have you on our side here Geoff but give us an indication of when we may see things starting to change and reassure us things will get better.

Thank you for your response Geoff and I do appreciate your observations, but we come back to the uncomfortable reality that Underscar owners are being compromised by HOTL redirecting from the Underscar website to properties that are in direct competition with Underscar, which surely cannot be in owners best interests?

By the way, it appears that some photos on the website are inaccurate in so much as they do not represent the actual lodge being marketed. Could this be corrected and would it be helpful for owners to forward any photos that best compliment the lodge, for example views from the apartment in question?
Just a thought.

This is a response to one of Anne Simpsons’ comments but will be of wider interest. . I am following the comments which people are making about the websites and the reletting and sales process but it would be better if people engaged by e-mailing me directly. I have noted the comments people are making about the problem with ”cottages” as a name for the premises we own together. I would like to see some alternatives please. Any ideas?? Anne made the following comment in one of her posts. ”When you google “ Underscar” as most potential renters ( and purchasers for that matter) will do, until they become familiar with the website(s), the original website takes precedence over anything else. ” I do not think most potential renters will google Underscar. Many of them will google things like: ”quality self catering accommodation in Lakes” Potential renters will get to an Underscar apartment to rent via the HOtL website. If we wish to increase levels of reletting we need to attract clients who are looking generally for high quality self catering rental accommodation in the Lakes or the Keswick area more specifically. Going with one single website which is the only place where apartments for rental appear is one option we should consider. But we would need to decide how such a website would achieve a high ranking on google; someone would need to develop and deliver an SEO and PPC programme to raise the profile of the website. This is a complex issue where we need to consider the balance between costs, effectiveness in terms of traffic generated, the need for an e-commerce facility (or not), the extent to which marketing for sales and marketing for rental conflict. In short I do not want to rush this. Re developing one or more websites will be a significant investment and we need t be sure we get it right,

Geoff Norris

Thanks Geoff and Guy.
Before I pass on observations re both websites I have a major concern which I hope you can help clarify.
The two websites are in conflict in so much as the Underscar.co.uk site still allows users to be redirected to other properties outside the remit of Underscar I.e. properties that are not part of the Underscar development.
This is not in the owners interests and so long as “Underscar “ remains part of the domain name in the original website ( Underscar.co.uk) this will remain a conflicting issue.
Perhaps if I explain a little more my concerns will become more apparent.
When you google “ Underscar” as most potential renters ( and purchasers for that matter) will do, until they become familiar with the website(s), the original website takes precedence over anything else. The only solution to this is that ANY domain name with Underscar in it must NOT redirect users to other properties.
HOTL will still be able to benefit from rental commission as renters will still be directed to their details on the Underscar website, plus, Heart of the Lakes have their own domain name.
Therefore, in effect, why should there be two separate websites for Underscar when one would suffice?
So long as the original website (Underscar.co.uk) becomes more user friendly fully comprehensive and accurate, following the feedback from owners, this website has the potential to be sufficient for both renters and purchasers but must not redirect users to other properties who are in direct competition to Underscar.
I would be grateful for your thoughts on this Geoff before too much time is spent on two separate websites.

We appear to have a problem as I’m getting notified via email of answers to this question today, but can’t see them. Please could you advise. Thanks.

Thank you Guy & Geoff. Clearly, a decision needs to be reached about the need to verify ”Spam”.
It was good to get some immediate feedback: let’s hope this continues for all questions/comments/feedback, when a Board reply is clearly needed. There are several points in various questions/comments that seem not to have been addressed by anyone.

I apologise for the confusion, Anne. I thought my e-mail was clear. When the e-mail went out asking for views it said ”I am particularly interested in your experience of using the Underscar website and any difficulties you may have encountered. ” I intended that that should be about the existing Underscar website (www.underscar.co.uk) . A number of people clearly thought I was referring to the new lettings website which is being developed by and is explained in the relevant section by HOtL and Chris Jackson. I am obviously happy to receive comments on both websites. I am sorry about the confusion. I should have insisted on my e-mail being sent out separately. I did not.
Geoff Norris. As per the e-mail feel free to respond to my personal e-mail address ([email protected]).

Dear Geoff
I am confused as on the one hand you have asked for feedback on the website http://www.underscar.co.uk and then on the other in an email you recently asked for feedback on the website http://www.underscar-holidays.co.uk.
Please could you clarify.
Thanks.

That’s great to hear Geoff / Gary, thanks for the responses.

Re moderation process etc I am considering this as part of the overall review of marketing sales and rentals. I have asked people to comment directly to me on these issues especially on the operation of the current underscar website. (Www.underscar.co.uk). You can do so directly to my email address [email protected]. Geoff Norris.

I’m working with Geoff on improving the rental options and am due to go to a Board meeting where it will be discussed. I’ve spoken to Ian Hedley about joining the Board and the options is there if all parties want to go ahead. I’ll keep posting here as and when there is progress

I’ve posted elsewhere about the moderation aspect and will formally request that it is removed as ti is unnecessary unless it can be shown to have been needed

Peter

Thanks, Guy, it worked ! Will use it next time. Meanwhile, how about forwarding some of the remarks to the Board?

Thank you Guy; I will give it a try.

It would be interesting to know who the ”moderator” is: perhaps he/she would reveal him/herself? My earlier post was listed within minutes……..
Not all the Board have jobs. They know what is being undertaken prior to joining. The responsibility could easily be shared among them. The Board’s reply/reaction to points raised is crucial to keep owners content. Otherwise the site just becomes a grumbling shop, which does no one any good

I find it strange that comments are moderated did261 but then no comments made from the Board – not sure what the moderation is for. I also had the same question and the response I got was that the Board don’t always check the message board as they’re all busy people and have jobs etc. I was slightly offended by the comment to be honest but hey, what does my £800 a year management fee matter anyway.

I agree regarding the term cottage – makes it sound like some quaint garden fronted haven rather than an ultra modern (with hugely expensive fixtures and fittings) – they were originally referred to as apartments and then lodges (again, this conjures up images of Burnside Park at the bottom of the Lane.

Titkat, have you had a response about joining the board yet?

”Also, could not this space for questions/replies be bigger? It is not easy to check what one has written if it goes to more than 2 lines!”

Just to answer this point as it is a technical question about the website – I think this is web browser specific. I am using Chrome on a desktop PC and I can ”drag” the box both wider and longer to give me as much space as I need to type/see my response. If this option isn’t available to you it might be that, so you could try a different browser.

I have also tried Firefox and that allows me to expand the box but Microsoft Edge doesn’t.

Encouraging to read a response from a (new) Board member. Surely, one important aspect of the Members’ Lounge is to ensure cross communication? Currently, it seems a one way system. My recollection, pre website days, is that emails to the then Committee were usually answered individually. Surely, every ”post” in this section should receive a Board response from the appropriate Director. I have to admit I rarely visit the website these days, but having trawled through the the current Questions, one has to be very concerned at the increasing number of dissatisfied comments/questions, which are being left unanswered. Not good for improving matters, never mind keeping owners happy.
Reference the DAE/RCI link, my understanding is that this only relates to RCI Europe but perhaps DAE could be asked to clarify the situation, especially as all Underscar Owners have permanent Gold Star status with DAE.
Separately, am I alone in my dislike of the term ”cottage” for our apartments? I note that in the new proposal from HOTL, both terms are used. How can a flat/apartment be a cottage?
Also, could not this space for questions/replies be bigger? It is not easy to check what one has written if it goes to more than 2 lines!
Time to stop….

Has any owner who attended the AGM in London got any feedback on any of the points raised above?

Good go hear Geoff, I’m sure we all look forward with interest to see what improvements can be made.

’re my post ’re marketing etc. Forgot to sign it.!!! Geoff Norris

I recently joined the Board and would like to respond to a couple of points raised. First my understanding is that a newsletter coming out shortly will be setting out details ’re joining the board. If you miss it and wish to join the board just write to the Chair setting out what skills you have to offer in any event. My second point relates to the issue of marketing, sales and rentals These too are of concern to me and I have therefore recently taken on responsibility to look at this issue on behalf of the board. I will be undertaking a systematic review of current arrangements with a view to developing options for improvement. As part of that review I intend to invite viEws and contributions from all owners.

We are also very concerned, especially after receiving the breakdown of where our management fee goes, We have asked Ian Hedley for a breakdown – it was promised whilst he was at Underscar (week 5 I believe) but nothing is forthcoming. I’ve just returned from our week 7, I flew solo and used it as a combined working / walking week. Ashness is tired and in need of investment and let’s not start on the wall!

We also are unable to attend the AGM due to it’s location this year (anywhere outside of London would be fine) – I would hope that decisions will not be made by a show of hands in the room as they were last year (ie additional increase in fees). It would appear that UOC are not in control of the club, Fisherbeck are running everything, they seem to profit from everything (assuming they manage the cleaners as well as maintenance). We need answers, we need to be able to rebuild trust and we need people on the Board who have our interests a heart – I don’t feel this is currently the case.

The resale / rentals is still a joke, you can’t search for a property on the Underscar website unless you’re an owner!

I, like you Annie would like to see the full minutes from the meeting along with concerns and planned actions / timescales.

I’m unsure if any members of the Board read these messages so maybe what is needed it that members send direct emails to the Board to ask for a clear record of the meeting to be forwarded to us.

Oh – and very interesting about RCI / DAE! I had no idea the two were linked but I would hope someone from the Board can explain what the reason for this arrangement is

Like you Annie, I have many concerns about how Underscar is being run. I have asked Ian Hedley (on Thursday 8th) about Board vacancies and nomination process but have had no response so far.

There are a few of us who are worried and I am happy to support (nominate / second or whatever!) anyone who has the time to join the Board and try to see that these issues are progressed. If noone feels they are able to, I will consider standing myself, but I suspect that we need to decide quickly as there will be a time cut off. Could even be that it is too late as we are so close to the AGM

Peter